Hi, Marty. I don’t agree with you that Jesus does not fulfill the criteria of Messiah… I said I understand why Judaism followers say He doesn’t. We are seeing things from two different standpoints. You believe Jesus should have fulfilled all of those prophecies the moment He came; as a Christian, I believe He is coming back at a future point, and will fulfill more prophecies this final time around.

It’s not so simple for me to take someone else’s word about what something means or does not mean. I have to read and understand for myself, which is what I have been doing, if you’ve noticed the other posts on this site. I am looking at things (the prophecies) piece by piece, so please be patient. [What Jews Believe: One Cannot Die For The Sins Of Another & Who Twists Isaiah 53 - Jews Or Christians?]

And it’s interesting that you seemed to have totally missed the point I was trying to make in my previous response when I made mention of Abraham (as you say above ‘I don’t understand why you believe’). Please tell me why Father Abraham believed, and I will tell you why I believe.

Peace.

Marty, I understand the claims about why Jews don’t believe Jesus is Messiah. I understand that there are SOME prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill while He was alive on this earth. I understand that Jews do not believe Jesus was GOD in any way, shape or form — because you know the verse that says GOD is no man. I understand Jesus was not born of the specific Davidian branch that He supposedly should have been. I understand all of those things.

But, as a Christian I understand a few other things. I believe that GOD does not lie and I believe that He sent Jesus, who shares HIS same Eternal Spirit, among His chosen people to show them the way — which is not all about the law.

As I have been reading (if you’ll look at this post, Marty: http://lavrai.com/blogs/2008/04/06/who-twists-isaiah-53-jews-or-christians/) and reflecting and taking careful note of what the prophets say (I’m currently taking Isaiah at a snail’s pace) and compare them with the interpretations of Judaism (Rabbi Tovia Singer, for example), I find that it seems to me that there is this very great stumbling block.

Please don’t be offended. I am really trying to express my opinions in the best way possible… The thing is, it seems to me, the more I read of Judaism, that folks are focused on the laws and doing this and doing that and traditions traditions traditions.

I remember father Abram…right before he became Abraham. How he worried about these promises the ALMIGHTY had made him…but had neglected to give him an offspring to inherit these promises. But GOD shows him the heavens and tells him his descendants will be so numerous. In Genesis 15:6 It says And because he put his trust in the LORD, He reckoned it to his merit. In the ‘Christian’ translations it says, And he believed in the LORD; and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

GOD counted Abraham as a friend, not because he followed all of the laws or any traditions (for the law of circumcision had not even arrived until a little later after this). If Abraham had died right there and then…or after Isaac was born… he would have been sitting with the Father. Yet Abraham did not have the Torah or Talmud…and GOD considered him righteous.

Now, I am not saying neglecting the law is of any merit… what I am saying is, some Jews came to the understanding that it is not the law that saves the soul — it is one’s faith in the LORD GOD Almighty. The Law is not above the Creator.

No, Jesus has not fulfilled all of these prophecies (yet, in the Christian mind), but some believe that He will return and establish this Kingdom and put a final end to Israel’s enemies — thus, fulfilling the prophecies. For we Christians also believe that the ALMIGHTY cannot lie.

So, in the end, Marty, it is not about the prophecies, for prophecies take time and time to fulfill, it is about believing GOD. What would you do if you did not have the Torah or Talmud as Abraham did not? Would you have let your native country to wander the desert? Would you have taken your impossible first-born up to the sacrificing place and shed his blood for the LORD? Do you have that kind of faith, Marty — or does your strength rest on the writings?

So I am not concerned about proving anything, as you of Judaism are convinced that you have already proven everything. What I am doing is asking questions, so pleas take a look at this link, Marty, and tell me what you think. What would happen if the interpretation actually spoke of a ‘one’ and not of a ‘many.’

http://lavrai.com/blogs/2008/04/06/who-twists-isaiah-53-jews-or-christians/

I hope my response has not disappointed you. I am not looking for some heated debate where one will be wrong and one will be right. I think both Christians and Jews should be asking questions, for they are both GOD’s called…and the only ones who still bother to pay HIM any mind. We don’t need to be joined hand-in-hand, but it would be nice to see eye-to-eye.

When I have finished my reading, I’ll post my own reaction to the reactions.

I must say, however, that these comments and links folks have been leaving makes me wonder why Jews believe in GOD. Is it because your Biblical history is reflected in secular history? I’m still trying to understand why you reject Jesus as the Messiah but embrace GOD as who HE says HE is, when there is no case for either — based on how Jesus is disproved as the Messiah.

Is it because it is written down and that you have your traditions that you believe, or is it because GOD really “speaks” to you? Simply, where does your faith lie — in the Torah and Talmud…or in the One whom they speak of?

I mean, I don’t have any hard, ’scientific’ evidence to which I could point to to convince another that their GOD does indeed exist. My faith is not based on the Bible, although it is through the Bible that I learn of HIM. But I tell you what — if someone was to find a new ‘bible’ or what have you, my faith would not change…because of the numerous personal experiences and observations. So if I did not have the Bible, it would be impossible for me to stop believing on GOD’s existence.

I hope that makes sense.

Is it so for the followers of Judaism? Would one be ‘lost’ without the Torah and Talmud?

Even Christians are bothered by the fact that Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophesies therefore they invented the second coming. They also claim that Jesus is the messiah because he performed miracles etc.

The Bible tells us what the Messiah will do. If we read the clearly Messianic prophesies we see that the prophesies focus on 2 points: 1) World Peace (Because the focus of the OT is primarily on the Jews and on Israel, this idea is often expressed by describing the future peaceful conditions in Israel) 2) Recognition of God. Another subset of the prophesies focus on the Messiah himself(in both of the above contexts).

[edited by LaVrai: please use the link Marty B. gives to understand what he's talking about. It is too long to post here]

Marty’s link: The Pope is dead

Here is one reason:
One of the main issues is how could Jesus have been the messiah if the messiah on one hand needs to be descended from the House of David and on the other hand Jesus was born of a virgin birth.

One of the fundamental points about the Messiah is that he must be descended from the House of David, and not only from the House of David, but a certain branch of the House of David. This presents great problems for Jesus being the the Messiah as we will see.
Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth, he had no father. As we all know lineage is paternal we see this clearly in Messiah and the lineage in Luke is not through Solomon.

[edited by LaVrai: please use the link Marty B. gives to understand what he's talking about. It is too long to post here]

Marty’s link: The Pope is dead

And, may I ask you, sir — what proof do you have that this G_d of yours exists?

If the Christian’s New Testament nor the non-Biblical historical texts can serve as proof for those who say Jesus is the Messiah… what besides the Torah & Talmud do those who follow Judaism point to as proof for the invisible GOD they serve? Who do you know who has seen Him?